VMD-L Mailing List

From: Axel Kohlmeyer (akohlmey_at_cmm.chem.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue Jul 22 2008 - 15:59:42 CDT

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, Samir Unni wrote:

SU> Hi,
SU>
SU> That worked perfectly! I guess reducing the dimensions of the video really
SU> makes a difference in the rendering time. I don't think I need anything that
SU> isn't exported to an external renderer, though I'll let you know if I do
SU> need that in the future.
SU>
SU> However, there is one other issue related to this. Does VMD require X to be
SU> present on a system for it to compile properly? When I try to manually
SU> compile the VMD plugins (using the tarball from the VMD site) on a system
SU> without X, autoconf won't exit without an error. The machine is running

VMD does _not_ use autoconf. have a look at the configure file.
it is a perl program/script. the whole build procedure is different.

SU> Gentoo Linux, and when I try to compile VMD using Portage (the package
SU> manager), by default, it tries to download X as a dependency. I don't see a
SU> USE flag (used to define compile-time options in Portage) for VMD that would
SU> allow me to disable X support in VMD (though that may be a shortcoming on
SU> the part of the package maintainer's ebuild, and not a deficiency in VMD).
SU> Do you know if there's a way to compile VMD even if X isn't installed on the
SU> system?

if you build VMD without the FLTK, TK, and OPENGL options it
should work fine without X. except in the OpenGL output device
section no X11 headers are included directly.

cheers,
   axel.

SU>
SU> Thanks,
SU>
SU> Samir
SU>
SU>
SU> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:51 PM, John Stone <johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu> wrote:
SU>
SU> >
SU> >
SU> > Samir,
SU> > Please try the attached revised version of the movie maker plugin, along
SU> > with the test script I've provided. To use this, simply move or rename the
SU> > "vmdmovie1.6" directory typically found installed in:
SU> > /usr/local/lib/vmd/plugins/noarch/tcl/vmdmovie1.6
SU> >
SU> > I'd suggest to rename it to oldvmdmovie1.6 to make sure it doesn't
SU> > somehow get in the way of the new one I'm providing for you in this email.
SU> > Unpack the one I've attached, so it ends up as:
SU> > /usr/local/lib/vmd/plugins/noarch/tcl/vmdmovie1.7
SU> >
SU> > A simple test script to try is attached as well.
SU> > You'll see that I've got it using the "libtachyon" movie type
SU> > when running in pure text mode, this should be fast enough in many
SU> > cases and will work without a display/window system connection.
SU> >
SU> > If you need to render something that isn't exported to the external
SU> > renderers, let me know and I'll see if I can give you a test version
SU> > that will... :)
SU> >
SU> > Cheers,
SU> > John Stone
SU> > vmd_at_ks.uiuc.edu
SU> >
SU> > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:46:17PM -0500, John Stone wrote:
SU> > >
SU> > > I'll send you an email later today with some scripts, I'll cover the
SU> > > other questions you asked regarding Tachyon speed etc at that time as
SU> > well.
SU> > >
SU> > > Cheers,
SU> > > John
SU> > >
SU> > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:22:20PM -0500, Samir Unni wrote:
SU> > > > Hi,
SU> > > >
SU> > > > Does that mean there is a command that I can use in the state file to
SU> > > > manually require the vmdmovie package so it can be used without X, at
SU> > least
SU> > > > until the support for rendering without a GUI is improved? Do you know
SU> > the
SU> > > > syntax for including such a command in the state file?
SU> > > >
SU> > > > Thanks,
SU> > > >
SU> > > > Samir
SU> > > >
SU> > > >
SU> > > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Axel Kohlmeyer <
SU> > > > akohlmey_at_cmm.chem.upenn.edu> wrote:
SU> > > >
SU> > > > > On Mon, 21 Jul 2008, Samir Unni wrote:
SU> > > > >
SU> > > > > SU> Hi,
SU> > > > > SU>
SU> > > > > SU> Yes, that fixed the problem! Is the state variable that's missing
SU> > one
SU> > > > > of the
SU> > > > > SU> two (or both) that I initialized in my modified version of
SU> > > > > vmdmovie.tcl?
SU> > > > > SU>
SU> > > > > SU> Also, even if this problem is fixed, it seems that the
SU> > 'makemovie'
SU> > > > > method
SU> > > > > SU> cannot be used unless a GUI is running (i.e. starting vmd with
SU> > > > > '-dispdev
SU> > > > > SU> none' or '-dispdev text' won't work). That isn't an option in my
SU> > case,
SU> > > > > since
SU> > > > > SU> I will be using the state files I'm creating with instances of
SU> > VMD that
SU> > > > > are
SU> > > > > SU> on servers where X is not present. Is there a scriptable
SU> > workaround for
SU> > > > > this
SU> > > > > SU> issue as well?
SU> > > > >
SU> > > > > if you are running without a display you have to
SU> > > > > "require" all packages you want to use.
SU> > > > > all packages with a GUI (and the ones those depends on)
SU> > > > > have to be "required" by VMD during startup to be able
SU> > > > > to register their GUI. if john finds a way to set up the
SU> > > > > initialization properly, then it should work as well
SU> > > > > on machines without display, provided you use a renderer
SU> > > > > different from "snapshot", that is.
SU> > > > >
SU> > > > > cheers,
SU> > > > > axel.
SU> > > > >
SU> > > > >
SU> > > > > SU>
SU> > > > > SU> Thanks,
SU> > > > > SU>
SU> > > > > SU> Samir
SU> > > > > SU>
SU> > > > > SU>
SU> > > > > SU> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:31 AM, John Stone <johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu>
SU> > > > > wrote:
SU> > > > > SU>
SU> > > > > SU> > I think I've reproduced the problem you encountered, try doing
SU> > this
SU> > > > > SU> > and see if you get different behavior:
SU> > > > > SU> >
SU> > > > > SU> > Run the command line script as before, and verify that you get
SU> > > > > SU> > the 1 frame movie, as before.
SU> > > > > SU> >
SU> > > > > SU> > Then, after having done this, try opening the GUI for the movie
SU> > > > > SU> > maker, through the Extensions->Visualization->Movie Maker menu.
SU> > > > > SU> > Once the window is opened, try running the script at the
SU> > command
SU> > > > > SU> > line again. Let me know if it works correctly for you the
SU> > second
SU> > > > > SU> > time. I believe that the issue here is an internal state
SU> > variable
SU> > > > > SU> > that's only being properly initialized when the GUI has been
SU> > opened.
SU> > > > > SU> > It will be easy to workaround/fix with one or two extra lines
SU> > of
SU> > > > > SU> > scripting if that's all that's causing your problem.
SU> > > > > SU> >
SU> > > > > SU> > Cheers,
SU> > > > > SU> > John Stone
SU> > > > > SU> > vmd_at_ks.uiuc.edu
SU> > > > > SU> >
SU> > > > > SU> >
SU> > > > > SU> > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 07:57:59AM -0500, Samir Unni wrote:
SU> > > > > SU> > > Hi,
SU> > > > > SU> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > Sorry I'm so late in getting back to you. Anyway, that code
SU> > doesn't
SU> > > > > work
SU> > > > > SU> > on
SU> > > > > SU> > > the Mac either. It just briefly opens the video (for one
SU> > frame, I
SU> > > > > think)
SU> > > > > SU> > and
SU> > > > > SU> > > then closes. I'm using the 1.8.6 version of VMD?is that the
SU> > one
SU> > > > > you're
SU> > > > > SU> > > using?
SU> > > > > SU> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > Thanks,
SU> > > > > SU> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > Samir
SU> > > > > SU> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Samir Unni <
SU> > srunni_at_gmail.com>
SU> > > > > wrote:
SU> > > > > SU> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > > Hi,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > > I tried that, but it didn't work for me. When I attempted
SU> > to play
SU> > > > > the
SU> > > > > SU> > video
SU> > > > > SU> > > > file with MPlayer, the window appeared for a second and
SU> > then
SU> > > > > SU> > disappeared,
SU> > > > > SU> > > > just like before. I think only one frame is being recorded.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > > Right now I'm trying this on my Linux machine at home, but
SU> > I'll
SU> > > > > try it
SU> > > > > SU> > > > again on the Mac at work tomorrow morning and see if it
SU> > works
SU> > > > > there.
SU> > > > > SU> > > > However, this was the exact same problem I was previously
SU> > having
SU> > > > > on the
SU> > > > > SU> > Mac,
SU> > > > > SU> > > > so I don't think it will. If it's working for you, it might
SU> > have
SU> > > > > SU> > something
SU> > > > > SU> > > > to do with the state file I'm using, which I created by
SU> > importing
SU> > > > > the
SU> > > > > SU> > DX
SU> > > > > SU> > > > output file from APBS into VMD.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > > I had meant to attached the modified version of
SU> > vmdmovie.tcl to
SU> > > > > the
SU> > > > > SU> > last
SU> > > > > SU> > > > email; it's attached now, if you want to take a look.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > > Thanks,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > > Samir
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 9:56 PM, John Stone <
SU> > johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu>
SU> > > > > wrote:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >>
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> Hi,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> I'm not sure how you changed your copy of the
SU> > vmdmovie.tcl
SU> > > > > file,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> but I'd ask that before we delve any further, that you
SU> > first try
SU> > > > > the
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> original vmdmovie plugin and the command I emailed
SU> > earlier. If
SU> > > > > that
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> works for you, then we can proceed with debugging whatever
SU> > has
SU> > > > > been
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> changed in your modified version. Starting with your
SU> > modified
SU> > > > > version
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> is likely to add more confusion so I'd rather leave that
SU> > for a
SU> > > > > second
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> step. Please try the example sequence I sent earlier and
SU> > let me
SU> > > > > know
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> if that works with the unmodified script on your system,
SU> > or not.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >>
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> Cheers,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> John Stone
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> vmd_at_ks.uiuc.edu
SU> > > > > SU> > > >>
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 09:18:24PM -0500, Samir Unni
SU> > wrote:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > Hi,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > That character resulted from an issue with the email
SU> > > > > formatting; it
SU> > > > > SU> > was
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> not
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > actually part of the command that I used. The command I
SU> > used
SU> > > > > was:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > ::MovieMaker::makemovie /Users/srunni/dev/vmd_tests/1fas
SU> > 1fas
SU> > > > > SU> > ppmtompeg
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > snapshot 10
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > Also, I sent an update a few hours after my initial
SU> > email, but
SU> > > > > it
SU> > > > > SU> > seems
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> not
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > to have made it onto the mailing list. I will repost it
SU> > here:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > --------------------
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > I've got a small update. I slightly changed
SU> > vmdmovie.tcl, so
SU> > > > > that
SU> > > > > SU> > the
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > framerate can be passed to the 'makemovie' method. When
SU> > I did
SU> > > > > this,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> defined
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > 'framerate' as the extra variable being passed now, and
SU> > > > > defined
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> 'numframes'
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > as the product of the framerate and the duration, a
SU> > working
SU> > > > > movie
SU> > > > > SU> > was
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > created. Though it would seem that only 2 of these 3
SU> > variables
SU> > > > > need
SU> > > > > SU> > to
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> be
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > defined for the program to be able to determine the 3rd,
SU> > when
SU> > > > > I
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> eliminated
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > any one of them, the movie was not generated correctly.
SU> > I have
SU> > > > > SU> > attached
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> the
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > working version of vmdmovie.tcl, if anyone wants to look
SU> > at
SU> > > > > it.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > I would still like to know if there is a way to generate
SU> > a
SU> > > > > movie
SU> > > > > SU> > from
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> the
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > command line without modifying any files that are a part
SU> > of
SU> > > > > VMD, if
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > possible.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > --------------------
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > I still have not found a workaround for this issue. The
SU> > > > > command I am
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> using
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > now is:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > ::MovieMaker::makemovie /Users/srunni/dev/vmd_tests/1fas
SU> > 1fas
SU> > > > > SU> > ppmtompeg
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > tachyon 5 40
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > Thanks,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > Samir Unni
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 5:02 PM, John Stone <
SU> > > > > johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu>
SU> > > > > SU> > wrote:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > Hi,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > The ">" character you have in your example below
SU> > shouldn't
SU> > > > > be
SU> > > > > SU> > there,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > that would cause some trouble for sure.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > Here's a proper example command sequence to make a
SU> > movie
SU> > > > > from text
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> mode:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > package require vmdmovie
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > mkdir /tmp/mytmpdir
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > ::MovieMaker::makemovie /tmp/mytmpdir example
SU> > ppmtompeg
SU> > > > > snapshot
SU> > > > > SU> > 10
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > This worked fine for me.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > Try that and let me know how it goes.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > Cheers,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > John Stone
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > vmd_at_ks.uiuc.edu
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 09:32:37AM -0500, Samir Unni
SU> > wrote:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > Hi,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > I'm trying to create a Tcl script that will use
SU> > output
SU> > > > > from APBS
SU> > > > > SU> > to
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > create a
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > video file, with no user interaction. So far, I have
SU> > > > > managed to
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> manually
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > create a state file, to which I can then add a few
SU> > lines
SU> > > > > of code
SU> > > > > SU> > for
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> the
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > Movie Plugin, to automatically generate the video
SU> > file and
SU> > > > > then
SU> > > > > SU> > exit
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> VMD.
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > However, I can't seem to get VMD to properly
SU> > generate the
SU> > > > > video
SU> > > > > SU> > file
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> when
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > I
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > use the script. It creates a file, but it doesn't
SU> > seem to
SU> > > > > SU> > contain
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> any
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > actual
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > data (it's only about 20 KB), and doesn't play
SU> > correctly
SU> > > > > when I
SU> > > > > SU> > open
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> it
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > with
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > MPlayer. This is the line of code that seems to be
SU> > the
SU> > > > > problem:
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > ::MovieMaker::makemovie
SU> > /Users/srunni/dev/vmd_tests/1fas
SU> > > > > 1fas
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> ppmtompeg
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > > snapshot 10
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > When I load this exact same state file, but with
SU> > that line
SU> > > > > SU> > removed,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> and
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > manually use the Movie Plugin, there are no
SU> > problems. I
SU> > > > > figured
SU> > > > > SU> > out
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> the
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > syntax for the above code by taking a look at
SU> > > > > vmdmovie.tcl, and
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> imitating
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > the calls made when the Movie Plugin is launched
SU> > from the
SU> > > > > GUI.
SU> > > > > SU> > As
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> far as
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > I
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > can tell, I have made no mistakes in the syntax.
SU> > Does
SU> > > > > anyone
SU> > > > > SU> > know
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> why
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > this
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > isn't working correctly?
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > Thanks,
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > > Samir Unni
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > --
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > NIH Resource for Macromolecular Modeling and
SU> > Bioinformatics
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > University of Illinois, 405 N. Mathews Ave, Urbana, IL
SU> > 61801
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > Email: johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu Phone:
SU> > > > > 217-244-3349
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > WWW: http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/~johns/>
SU> > <http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/>
SU> > > > > <http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/>
SU> > > > > SU> > <http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/><
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/>
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > > Fax: 217-244-6078
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >>
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> --
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> NIH Resource for Macromolecular Modeling and
SU> > Bioinformatics
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> University of Illinois, 405 N. Mathews Ave, Urbana, IL
SU> > 61801
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> Email: johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu Phone:
SU> > 217-244-3349
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> WWW: http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/~johns/>
SU> > <http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/>
SU> > > > > <http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/><
SU> > > > > SU> > http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/>
SU> > > > > SU> > > >> Fax: 217-244-6078
SU> > > > > SU> > > >>
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> > > >
SU> > > > > SU> >
SU> > > > > SU> > --
SU> > > > > SU> > NIH Resource for Macromolecular Modeling and Bioinformatics
SU> > > > > SU> > Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
SU> > > > > SU> > University of Illinois, 405 N. Mathews Ave, Urbana, IL 61801
SU> > > > > SU> > Email: johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu Phone: 217-244-3349
SU> > > > > SU> > WWW: http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/~johns/>
SU> > <http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/><
SU> > > > > http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/>
SU> > > > > SU> > Fax: 217-244-6078
SU> > > > > SU> >
SU> > > > > SU>
SU> > > > >
SU> > > > > --
SU> > > > >
SU> > =======================================================================
SU> > > > > Axel Kohlmeyer akohlmey_at_cmm.chem.upenn.edu
SU> > http://www.cmm.upenn.edu
SU> > > > > Center for Molecular Modeling -- University of Pennsylvania
SU> > > > > Department of Chemistry, 231 S.34th Street, Philadelphia, PA
SU> > 19104-6323
SU> > > > > tel: 1-215-898-1582, fax: 1-215-573-6233, office-tel:
SU> > 1-215-898-5425
SU> > > > >
SU> > =======================================================================
SU> > > > > If you make something idiot-proof, the universe creates a better
SU> > idiot.
SU> > > > >
SU> > >
SU> > > --
SU> > > NIH Resource for Macromolecular Modeling and Bioinformatics
SU> > > Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
SU> > > University of Illinois, 405 N. Mathews Ave, Urbana, IL 61801
SU> > > Email: johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu Phone: 217-244-3349
SU> > > WWW: http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/~johns/ <http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/> Fax: 217-244-6078
SU> >
SU> > --
SU> > NIH Resource for Macromolecular Modeling and Bioinformatics
SU> > Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology
SU> > University of Illinois, 405 N. Mathews Ave, Urbana, IL 61801
SU> > Email: johns_at_ks.uiuc.edu Phone: 217-244-3349
SU> > WWW: http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/~johns/ <http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/%7Ejohns/>
SU> > Fax: 217-244-6078
SU> >
SU> 

-- 
=======================================================================
Axel Kohlmeyer   akohlmey_at_cmm.chem.upenn.edu   http://www.cmm.upenn.edu
   Center for Molecular Modeling   --   University of Pennsylvania
Department of Chemistry, 231 S.34th Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6323
tel: 1-215-898-1582,  fax: 1-215-573-6233,  office-tel: 1-215-898-5425
=======================================================================
If you make something idiot-proof, the universe creates a better idiot.